02/02/2026 Senate Committee on Health and Human Services

Services Committee to order, and if senator Halborn would open us up in prayer, we'd appreciate that. Mic number three.

Y'all would bow your heads in prayer with me. Dear lord, thank you for another day to do your work and to glorify your name. I pray that we are able to use discernment as we consider what is ahead, in front of us. I pray that we are able to have grace and mercy. And remember that you have loved us despite our own faults so that we can do the good work for the people here.

In all these things, I pray in your name. Amen. This

is a 02:00 meeting that is taking place at 03:30, due to the four session that was longer than, anticipated. Maybe not maybe not anticipated, but it was longer. Let me put it that way. So we have one bill today, and I promised, Jack, who is watching online, that this would not take longer than thirty minutes. And senator Steele, who has the bill, assured me of that.

And, the committee, has it in their folder. We're doing Senate bill four eleven. And, this has to do with dry needling, which has been, which passed probably ten years ago. And this is being, addressed again. And I understand, all, maybe most, maybe all parties have come together, in agreement, multiple different communities.

And senator Still has the floor. Why don't you tell us about your bill and we're on, make sure we're correct. LC520991S. Alrighty. Floor is yours.

Chairman, thank you. And committee members, thank you for gathering. I feel pretty honored that, I've got so many esteemed legislators sitting around the table to hear a bill that is, pretty small in nature, but incredibly important to, a, a number of great people in the medical community. You may remember, from senator Kaussert's regulated industries last year, dry needling became a pretty hot topic, and, this is the result of that. And what we came to realize through last year's bill is that we can't single out individual medical practices on, the art of dry needling and that we needed to differentiate between acupuncture and dry needling and that there were a number of other practices beyond traditional Chinese medicine that were doing acupuncture and, that in the form that it was being used is called dry needling.

So what the bill does is it first and foremost, you know, it it defines what that is. And traditional Chinese medicine acupuncture is really focused on chi points, putting in, inserting needles, leaving needles in to perform, different levels of therapies. When physical therapists or occupational therapists do it, it's usually just to insert the needle, remove it to be able to stimulate and reactivate a muscle. That's the the most common use of it. But in order to bring this all together, we engaged our friends at the Georgia Medical Licensing Board who helped us with the definition.

At the request of all these different groups and multiple meetings, we even, had hearings here at the Capitol in the off season to bring everyone together, give testimony, and talk about it. And one of the major requests from the acupuncture industry was that we have truth in advertising that physical therapists and occupational therapists, if they're doing dry needling, that they don't acupuncturists. So that that has been made clear, and that's in section one of the bill. Section one goes through all of that, and then,

the reason that this is a substitute is for lines 38 through

40, and that this is a substitute is for lines 38 through 40, that a violation of this code does not constitute a private cause of action provided, however, that nothing in this code section shall be construed to limit or preclude any other available remedy at law or equity, and that came, from our friends in the legal community to make sure that, that had been considered. This limits it. As you'll see in lines 22 through 25, no person shall perform unless they've been duly licensed as an acupuncturist, occupational therapist, or physical therapist and completed the education and training, as prescribed. Section two just adds the line, and dry needling for specific therapeutic effect. Section three says that, no OT shall do it unless they've had a minimum of fifty hours.

And the reason we added that is to make sure that occupational therapists and physical therapists have the same minimum standard of training, that they don't have different levels of training. Section four, the language that that struck there, was at the request of the acupuncture industry. Medical licensing board was in concurrence with this, is that after all of their years of training, that they don't need to do an additional one year postgraduate experience, and this sort of lends to a little bit of a red tape rollback. It is really just perceived and and accurately so as just being a barrier to entry, and so this allows more people to enter that field with the proper amount of education and training. And, that's, pretty much the extent of it.

Happy to answer any questions if anybody has any.

Thank you. And we did not have anybody sign up, so our expert here is the author. And, and we do have a question there, number 10. Senator Hodges.

Thank you. Thanks for bringing the bill. The language that you mentioned on line 38, 39, and 40. I'm not a lawyer. So a violation of the code shall not constitute a private cause of action, but nothing in the code section about shall be construed to limit or preclude any other available remedy at law.

Private cause of action, meaning a lawsuit? Correct. So if So how do you access the other remedies without

Medical malpractice. So for example, if if, for example, and and this has happened not in Georgia, but in another state, A in this happened actually a couple of times where a needle is inserted too far Mhmm. It could touch the lung. And if you go through the lung field, and and it's called a pneumothorax where you've Mhmm. Effectually poked a hole in the lung, that would be something that that would constitute a private right of action.

But the truth in advertising component, we just wanted to make sure that that was not a right of action because that would be an acupuncturist bringing suit against, for example, an OT. But if there was something where a patient was, treated improperly altogether that that doesn't eliminate their right to do so. Senator Hatch, did I describe that correct?

Seek remedy by malpractice. Is that what that's that's accurate. Correct? Yes.

I skipped that day at law school, senator. And neither did I. You're number 11.

Okay. Thank you, mister chairman. I just wanted to comment. I looked at trying to do this a year or two ago and with the occupational therapist, acupuncturist, physical therapist, and I determined that I was not up to the task in bringing them all together. So I congratulate you on being up to the task and doing this.

I know

it's an affirmation, in some form. Alright. Any other, center Orrock is number one?

Thank thank you, mister chair.

As as usual, center Orrock, she doesn't go use the microphone, but, you know.

That's right. I I was a cheerleader and we didn't use a microphone. There we go. I I just want to add a little more history that that predates the comments of, doctor Hostetler. And that is that, eons ago, the medical association, had heart failure about acupuncturist coming on the scene and having any legitimate way of of practicing any elements of Asian, medicine.

And that's a long long time ago. So I can say looking at this that we've come a very long way. And I I I I got to know many many many Korean practitioners, of acupuncture back, eons ago in in doing the bill then. And I'm sure you've had interesting experiences with these different practitioners as as they've hammered out a a, a way to come together.

I learned more about it than I ever thought I would ever ever want to know.

And then and then the other question is, how many people besides me have have have experienced dry needling?

May I ask you? I'm sorry. I was

Senator Oroc was asking how many members of the committee have experienced or utilized dry needling or acupuncture.

In

addition to me.

Is this a HIPAA violation or something? No. We're all good. It's a stand with an ice bed. You know, stand with ice bed counts.

That that creates that. Yeah. I think that's, so we certainly have we have one person here. Alrighty. Senator Goodman has a good question.

Uh-oh. I'm just curious. What is the difference between acupuncture and dry needling?

So dry needling would be, that's if you let's just use a shoulder, for example, and that you had lost the use of it due to a traumatic injury. You got it caught in a a blueberry picking machine and, dislocated your shoulder and you were in physical therapy and you weren't getting the muscle to respond. They may try to hit a few nerve points to try to get the muscle to wake up, if you will. Whereas acupuncture is gonna be, you know, traditional Chinese medicine may be focused along the chi line, along your spine or your face or your ear. There may be some part in your big toe that helps activate something in your shoulder, And and so it would be more of you laying very still and having a series of needles inserted in various parts of your body.

And by the look on your face, that may be something that we recommend, just as general

I mean, I pretty much stood to ibuprofen, but,

it's a nice time.

You guys call that witchcraft. Alright.

I you know, that was a great explanation. Thank you, Senator Still. Any, anybody else with questions? I think we're doing great. Do we take a motion?

Motion. Yeah. We have a motion, due pass. Alright. LC fifty two zero nine nine one s, and we have a second from senator O'Rourke.

Bipartisan. Any further discussion?

Just in the line of discussion, I would say I would say, you know, in all seriousness, I've experienced great relief. Like, neck mobility is a is a is an example from a a skilled acupuncturist. And so, don't diss it till you try it. Leave my advice. And I've, have nothing else to add to the discussion, mister chairman.

Thank you. Anything further? No further discussion. All those in favor, say aye. Aye.

All those of oppose, like, sign. Sounds like it was unanimous.

Wow. Thank you, chairman. Thank you.

Alrighty. Appreciate that. I think Thank

you, guys.

Yes. Absolutely. We have some good and welfare here, from senator Kirkpatrick.

Yes. I'd like to introduce a visiting doctor who's with us today. Doctor Bala, would you stand up? She is a third year emergency medicine resident at Emory, and she's gonna be doing a health policy fellowship next year. So she'll be you'll see her around for the next couple weeks.

Thank you. Appreciate it. Any other business for the good and welfare? If not, we stand adjourned until Wednesday.

And when is physician's day? 04:00.

Do you remember when?

It is. February 4 is there are two special days, Wednesday. It's a special day, physician's day, and it is Savannah Chatham day. And the oyster roast. Don't forget that.

Are these,

Domestic oysters or are they planning? They are they are domestic. Definitely domestic oysters. Guarantee. Thank you all.

Thank you, miss Crittendon. We appreciate that. We got it, done. Thank you.